Ayuno + Proteina de suero + GYM + multi

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Re: Ayuno + Proteina de suero + GYM + multi

Notapor Fisio » Mar, 02 Jun 2015, 00:14

Metido en una periodización bien estructurada puede ser superior incluso en términos de anabolismo por aquello de las adaptaciones y creer que hay que estar siempre en el rango 8 rep. Y pérdida de grasa porque elevas el metabolismo. Veo adecuado aumentar volumen, en mi opinión suficiente para mantener anabolismo como mínimo, y mejorar la pérdida de grasa por encima de aeróbico donde si existe un catabolismo protéico.

Low-load high volume resistance exercise stimulates muscle protein synthesis more than high-load low volume resistance exercise in young men.
Burd NA1, West DW, Staples AW, Atherton PJ, Baker JM, Moore DR, Holwerda AM, Parise G, Rennie MJ, Baker SK, Phillips SM.
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Abstract
BACKGROUND:

We aimed to determine the effect of resistance exercise intensity (%1 repetition maximum-1RM) and volume on muscle protein synthesis, anabolic signaling, and myogenic gene expression.
METHODOLOGY/PRINCIPAL FINDINGS:

Fifteen men (21+/-1 years; BMI=24.1+/-0.8 kg/m2) performed 4 sets of unilateral leg extension exercise at different exercise loads and/or volumes: 90% of repetition maximum (1RM) until volitional failure (90FAIL), 30% 1RM work-matched to 90%FAIL (30WM), or 30% 1RM performed until volitional failure (30FAIL). Infusion of [ring-13C6] phenylalanine with biopsies was used to measure rates of mixed (MIX), myofibrillar (MYO), and sarcoplasmic (SARC) protein synthesis at rest, and 4 h and 24 h after exercise. Exercise at 30WM induced a significant increase above rest in MIX (121%) and MYO (87%) protein synthesis at 4 h post-exercise and but at 24 h in the MIX only. The increase in the rate of protein synthesis in MIX and MYO at 4 h post-exercise with 90FAIL and 30FAIL was greater than 30WM, with no difference between these conditions; however, MYO remained elevated (199%) above rest at 24 h only in 30FAIL. There was a significant increase in AktSer473 at 24h in all conditions (P=0.023) and mTORSer2448 phosphorylation at 4 h post-exercise (P=0.025). Phosporylation of Erk1/2Tyr202/204, p70S6KThr389, and 4E-BP1Thr37/46 increased significantly (P<0.05) only in the 30FAIL condition at 4 h post-exercise, whereas, 4E-BP1Thr37/46 phosphorylation was greater 24 h after exercise than at rest in both 90FAIL (237%) and 30FAIL (312%) conditions. Pax7 mRNA expression increased at 24 h post-exercise (P=0.02) regardless of condition. The mRNA expression of MyoD and myogenin were consistently elevated in the 30FAIL condition.
CONCLUSIONS/SIGNIFICANCE:

These results suggest that low-load high volume resistance exercise is more effective in inducing acute muscle anabolism than high-load low volume or work matched resistance exercise modes.



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20711498


En novatos y gente obesa puede aumentar la adherencia y ponerlo más asequible, por aquello de que eficacia y efectividad son conceptos distintos

Is high-intensity exercise better than moderate-intensity exercise for weight loss?
De Feo P1.
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Abstract

This viewpoint debates the state-of-the-art research focusing on the optimal intensity of the exercise programs for inducing a sustained weight or fat-mass loss in overweight/obese people. In our demanding society, the most attractive messages in the popular press are those promising the best results in a short time. This might explain the emphasis given by media to those scientific articles that report the efficacy on weight loss of exercise programs by their shorter duration and higher intensity. However, in the literature on overweight or obese people, there is little conclusive evidence for more favorable effects with high-intensity training than with continuous moderate-intensity exercise on body weight or fat mass loss. Since both exercise protocols have been demonstrated as useful to reduce body weight, the decision on the intensity of exercise prescription should be individualized and based on outcomes different from fat or weight loss. In this regard, there are pro and contra arguments for the prescription of high-intensity aerobic exercise in obese people. Among the pro arguments, is the demonstration that, in several studies, high-intensity training appears to induce superior improvements in aerobic fitness. Among the contra arguments to prescribe high-intensity exercise is the demonstration that prescribing a higher-intensity exercise decreases adherence and results in the completion of less exercise. Thus, a successful exercise program should be proposed at a moderate intensity and a low perceived effort because obese subjects who have low self-efficacy, poor mood status, and are not familiar with high-intensity workouts could easily drop out.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24119988
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Re: Ayuno + Proteina de suero + GYM + multi

Notapor charlyz » Mar, 02 Jun 2015, 13:17

En el célebre primer estudio que has puesto lo que veo son marcadores tecnotrónicos de esos que tanto sueles criticar , además tu mismo dijiste que la síntesis proteica aguda significaba poco .

El segundo también dice poco . Que el cardio continuo puede tener más adherencia que el HIIT lo sabemos todos , pero yo creía que estábamos hablando de la intensidad del entrenamiento de fuerza .

De cualquier forma , en ninguno de los dos habla de eficacia para la pérdida de grasa ...
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Re: Ayuno + Proteina de suero + GYM + multi

Notapor Fisio » Mar, 02 Jun 2015, 16:24

Bueno es que hay mas evidencia ciercunstancial que directa, pero aquí tienes medición directa de hipertrofia a 25-35 repeticiones.

Effects of Low- Versus High-Load Resistance Training on Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Well-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld BJ1, Peterson MD, Ogborn D, Contreras B, Sonmez GT.
Author information
Abstract

The purpose of this study was to compare the effect of low- versus high-load resistance training (RT) on muscular adaptations in well-trained subjects. Eighteen young men experienced in RT were matched according to baseline strength, and then randomly assigned to 1 of 2 experimental groups: a low-load RT routine (LL) where 25-35 repetitions were performed per set per exercise (n = 9), or a high-load RT routine (HL) where 8-12 repetitions were performed per set per exercise (n = 9). During each session, subjects in both groups performed 3 sets of 7 different exercises representing all major muscles. Training was carried out 3 times per week on non-consecutive days, for 8 total weeks. Both HL and LL conditions produced significant increases in thickness of the elbow flexors (5.3 vs. 8.6%, respectively), elbow extensors (6.0 vs. 5.2%, respectively), and quadriceps femoris (9.3 vs. 9.5%, respectively), with no significant differences noted between groups. Improvements in back squat strength were significantly greater for HL compared to LL (19.6 vs. 8.8%, respectively) and there was a trend for greater increases in 1RM bench press (6.5 vs. 2.0%, respectively). Upper body muscle endurance (assessed by the bench press at 50% 1RM to failure) improved to a greater extent in LL compared to HL (16.6% vs. -1.2%, respectively). These findings indicate that both HL and LL training to failure can elicit significant increases in muscle hypertrophy among well-trained young men; however, HL training is superior for maximizing strength adaptations.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25853914


mayor consumo de oxígeno vs aeróbico, tanto pesado como al 50% 1RM

Effect of Resistance Training on Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption.

Post-exercise energy expenditure has not been studied after resistance exercise. In this study, metabolic rate was measured by indirect calorimetry for nine volunteers after 40 minutes of cycling (80 percent of maximal heart rate), 40 minutes of circuit training (50 percent of individuals' maximum lift [1 RM] x 15 repetitions x 4 sets), 40 minutes of heavy resistance lifting (80 to 90 percent of 1 RM x 3-8 repetitions x 3 sets) and a control interval. Weight training included use of eight stations of Universal multi- and unistation equipment. All forms of exercise increased the metabolic rate immediately after exertion (p < 0.01). For circuit and heavy resistance lifting, the increase also was significant 30 minutes after exertion (p < 0.05). The absolute total increment in caloric use (mean +/- standard deviation) after exertion was comparable among circuit training (49 +/- 20 kilocalories), heavy lifting (51 +/- 31 kilocalories), and cycling (32 +/- 16 kilocalories). However, cycling was less (p < 0.05) than both forms of weight training. Our findings suggest that dynamic exertion is not required to augment post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC), and that the amount of exercising skeletal mass is an additional variable to consider when relating exercise to EPOC.


http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstr ... ess.2.aspx



Postexercise energy expenditure in response to acute aerobic or resistive exercise.
Gillette CA1, Bullough RC, Melby CL.
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Abstract

Postexercise energy metabolism was examined in male subjects age 22-35 years in response to three different treatments: a strenuous bout of resistive exercise (REx), a bout of stationary cycling (AEx) at 50% peak VO2, and a control condition (C) of quiet sitting. Resting metabolic rate (RMR) was measured the morning of and the morning following each condition. Recovery oxygen consumption (RcO2) was measured for 5 hr following each treatment. Total 5-hr RcO2 was higher for the REx treatment relative to both AEx and C, with the largest treatment differences occurring early during recovery. There were no large treatment differences in postexercise respiratory exchange ratio values, except for the first hour of recovery following REx. RMR measured 14.5 hr postexercise for the REx condition was significantly elevated compared to C. These results suggest that strenuous resistive exercise results in a greater excess postexercise oxygen consumption compared to steady-state endurance exercise of similar estimated energy cost.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7874151


Mayor consumo de oxígeno con descansos a 30 segundos

The effect of rest interval length on metabolic responses to the bench press exercise.
Ratamess NA1, Falvo MJ, Mangine GT, Hoffman JR, Faigenbaum AD, Kang J.
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Abstract

The purpose of this study was to examine the effects of different rest interval (RI) lengths on metabolic responses to the bench press. Eight resistance-trained men performed 10 randomized protocols [five sets of bench press with 75 or 85% of 1RM for ten (10REP) and five repetitions (5REP), respectively, using different RI (30 s, 1, 2, 3, 5 min)]. Oxygen consumption (VO(2)) was measured during exercise and for 30 min post exercise. For 30-s and 1-min RI: reductions (15-55%) in resistance and volume were observed (set 5 < 4 < 3 < 2 < 1). For 2-min RI: performance was maintained during the first two sets but was reduced by 8-29% during sets 3-5. For 3-min RI: a reduction was observed in volume where sets 4 and 5 were lower than sets 1-3 ( approximately 21%). For 5-min RI: only a reduction in set 5 was observed. Mean VO(2) and ventilation (V (E)) were progressively higher as RI length was shortened. VO(2) area under the curve indicated 10REP > 5REP for all RI except 1-min. Respiratory exchange ratio (RER) was elevated similarly for each protocol. Post exercise, VO(2), V (E), and RER were elevated through 30 min. No differences between RI were observed following 10REP; however, VO(2) after 30-s was higher than 2-, 3-, and 5-min and 1-min was higher than 5-min during 5REP. Fatigue rate was correlated (r = 0.30-0.49) to all metabolic variables. A continuum of performance reductions and metabolic responses were observed. The largest reductions in performance occurred with very short RI (<1 min), and performance was maintained during the first 3-4 sets when 3- and 5-min RI were used.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17237951


Lo que no encuentro es una evidencia tan clara de que sea un "mito" disminuir tiempo de descanso y hacer un entrenamiento de mayor volumen.

En la página 13 hay mayor epoc en intensidad vs volumen, pero claro: considerando el mismo tiempo de sesión... y comparando usualmente al 50% 1RM

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eli ... 000000.pdf


No veo una razón tan tajante como leo por ahí para no proponer circuito, ejercicios multiarticulares, descansos cortos, aumento de volumen. Luego insisto, la variabilidad en una periodización, veo bien meter entrenamientos así.
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Re: Ayuno + Proteina de suero + GYM + multi

Notapor charlyz » Mar, 02 Jun 2015, 17:17

- Primer estudio .... Yo el estudio que conozco es este http://www.tupincho.net/foro/estudio-so ... t9622.html . Vamos que se hipertrofia a altas repeticiones sí ... no he dicho yo que no .

- En el segundo estudio , si lo interpreto bien y no me lío .... ¿ 50 calorías ? Eso es significativo ?¿?¿?¿ Sobre la alta intensidad con componente aeróbico ( llámese Tabata o llámese Crossfit ) leo que es mejor por el consumo de calorías post ejercicio , pero aunque el EPOC sin duda es mayor cuanto mayor sea la intensidad ( deuda de oxígeno ) este supone un porcentaje de las calorías quemadas durante el ejercicio y como durante el aeróbico son más las que se queman , sigue dando un total mayor http://fisiomorfosis.com/foro/culturism ... intensidad .

y lo más importante es que las adaptaciones que se producen no vienen vía consumo calórico, si no por la acción de las hormonas que este tipo de entrenamiento hace que nuestro organismo segregue. En concreto las hormonas segregadas son en su mayoría, catecolaminas, cortisol, norepinefrina y epinefrina cuyos efectos a nivel general tienen como objetivo la liberación de los depósitos de ácidos grasos subcutáneos e intramusculares, la mejora a la resistencia a la insulina, el incremento de la lipolisis; y todo ello unido es lo que produce las reducciones de porcentaje de grasa corporal vistas anteriormente.

Sacado de http://www.gymfactory.net/2013/06/hiit- ... ining.html


- Y el tercero pues más de lo mismo .


Vuelvo a repetir que un entrenamiento de los mal llamados militar ( para que se me entienda ) puede tener sentido en definición porque es un 2 en 1 de fuerza y de resistencia , pero que aún así , yendo corto de calorías me quedaría lejos del fallo .... algún burro habrá que haga media hora de circuitos al fallo , pero que PARA LA PÉRDIDA DE GRASA no creo que sea muy relevante simplemente pasar de un 4 x 6 a un 4 x 20 con 1 minuto de descanso .
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Re: Ayuno + Proteina de suero + GYM + multi

Notapor PsicoTrain » Mar, 02 Jun 2015, 22:07

Fisio escribió:
charlyz escribió:¿ Por el mayor consumo calórico o por qué mecanismo ?


Estás más cercano al cardio en términos de demanda metabólica, el cuerpo no es tonto y moviliza ácidos grasos, pero trabajando la musculatura para tener un turnover proteico. Me gustaría ver alguna prueba o argumento fisiológico razonablemente expuesto de por qué no es así.


Estar más cercano al ritmo de "cardio" no creo que sea un buen argumento para defender que un sistema es mejor para la quema de grasas que otro. El entrenamiento de tipo "fuerza" puede que consuma menos energía de forma momentánea que un ejercicio más "movido", sin embargo creo que de forma global el cómputo es mejor en un entreno de fuerza. El conocido EPOC que se puso de moda hace un tiempo y parece que ya nadie habla de él. Yo en mi cuerpo lo veo de una forma muy clara, si me meto un entreno de cardio largo o de hipertrofia-congestión, una vez tomados suficientes carbos y protes en la comida posterior veo como me siento saciado y apartir de ahí mi cuerpo retoma sus valores "basales". Sin embargo con un buen entreno de fuerza (hablo de un buen número de series de ejercicios básicos a porcentajes cercanos al máximo para cortas repeticiones) mi cuerpo no recupera su homeostasis de una forma tan sencilla como una buena comida post-entreno. A las 2 horas mi cuerpo vuelve a pedir ingentes cantidades de comida, incluso tras entrenos de fuerza realmente duros se me abren los ojos por la noche y tengo que ir en busca de comida. Yo esto lo interpreto como que mi cuerpo sigue activado, en modo "consumo de calorías" para que nos entendamos. Algo que con 45 min de bici estatica o unas series de aperturas y extensiones de cuádriceps simplemente no pasa. Y al final hagas lo que hagas hay que pasar hambre si quieres llegar a niveles realmente bajos de grasa, otra cosa es estar al 12% o asi pero en mi opinión para bajar del 9% hay que privarse de ciertas cosas y entrenar realmente duro. Hablando de gente sin ayudas de farma y una genética "media"
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Re: Ayuno + Proteina de suero + GYM + multi

Notapor Fisio » Mar, 30 Jun 2015, 11:12

Retomo esto. No defiendo que sea mejor altas repeticiones vs aeróbico para quema de grasa. Defiendo que es posible que un entrenamiento de altas repeticiones permita perder menos masa muscular y aumentar la oxidación respecto a un entrenamiento de bajas repeticiones + cardio. Por otro lado se ha dicho que esto es un mito, y no he logrado encontrar pruebas de que sea un mito.

Schoenfeld y Contreras hace dos meses

J Strength Cond Res. 2015 Apr 3. [Epub ahead of print]
Effects of Low- Versus High-Load Resistance Training on Muscle Strength and Hypertrophy in Well-Trained Men.
Schoenfeld BJ1, Peterson MD, Ogborn D, Contreras B, Sonmez GT.
Author information
Abstract

The purpose of this study was to compare the effect of low- versus high-load resistance training (RT) on muscular adaptations in well-trained subjects. Eighteen young men experienced in RT were matched according to baseline strength, and then randomly assigned to 1 of 2 experimental groups: a low-load RT routine (LL) where 25-35 repetitions were performed per set per exercise (n = 9), or a high-load RT routine (HL) where 8-12 repetitions were performed per set per exercise (n = 9). During each session, subjects in both groups performed 3 sets of 7 different exercises representing all major muscles. Training was carried out 3 times per week on non-consecutive days, for 8 total weeks. Both HL and LL conditions produced significant increases in thickness of the elbow flexors (5.3 vs. 8.6%, respectively), elbow extensors (6.0 vs. 5.2%, respectively), and quadriceps femoris (9.3 vs. 9.5%, respectively), with no significant differences noted between groups. Improvements in back squat strength were significantly greater for HL compared to LL (19.6 vs. 8.8%, respectively) and there was a trend for greater increases in 1RM bench press (6.5 vs. 2.0%, respectively). Upper body muscle endurance (assessed by the bench press at 50% 1RM to failure) improved to a greater extent in LL compared to HL (16.6% vs. -1.2%, respectively). These findings indicate that both HL and LL training to failure can elicit significant increases in muscle hypertrophy among well-trained young men; however, HL training is superior for maximizing strength adaptations.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25853914
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